tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204289.post8872473728166178311..comments2024-03-28T12:12:45.202-05:00Comments on Independent Country: Left-libertarianism revisitedAnonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11620822221586726516noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204289.post-88277019432098903792009-01-01T04:18:00.000-06:002009-01-01T04:18:00.000-06:00If anything at all, the mere existence of an argum...If anything at all, the mere existence of an argument within libertarianism that pits people who want to deny same-sex marriage based on the idea that the state has no place in marriage against people who want to affirm same-sex marriage based on the idea that all should have equal access to the law shows how destructive statism really is.<BR/><BR/>Would either side here be willing to extend the definition of marriage to those who enter common law marriages while refusing state licenses as a matter of religious conscience? Be careful of your answer. It may betray who you think has the right to define marriage.Steve Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10297044571819912511noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204289.post-35441598013950945162008-12-30T23:44:00.000-06:002008-12-30T23:44:00.000-06:00As for trade: prior to coming around to libertaria...As for trade: prior to coming around to libertarianism (and subsequently anarchism), I used to flirt with a "humanitarian"-based protectionism, opposing trade with nations that tended to have mistreated & destitute laborers.<BR/><BR/>Now? I just think in nations where that's the case the workers should take over. <BR/><BR/>The politicized nature of globalization already suggests that without such pseudo-"free" trade agreements there'd be more local production anyway. An honest trade policy critic doesn't have to call for artificial cost increases, just removal of the artificial discounts.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204289.post-68239547700580670242008-12-30T23:28:00.000-06:002008-12-30T23:28:00.000-06:00Marriage wasn't always a state thing. Hell, the d...Marriage wasn't always a state thing. Hell, the deeply religious used to be highly anti-government. <BR/><BR/>The only reason the current crop opposes gay marriage is because they interpret it as government endorsement of a lifestyle they disagree with. Even if that were the case that'd still just beg the question of why the government is rubber-stamping ANYone's sex lives. The cultural/religious vow at the root of marriage doesn't require a willing State. <BR/><BR/>If any left-libertarians think abolishing state approval of marriages isn't a better idea than expanding that approval, I haven't run across them yet. State license for relationships strikes me as an inherently capital "C" conservative thing, so it puzzles me that any conceivable Left could support it, whether the anti-government kind or not.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204289.post-22432144187561579872008-12-29T17:58:00.000-06:002008-12-29T17:58:00.000-06:00Again, I am NOT for controlled immigration, or aga...Again, I am NOT for controlled immigration, or against free trade. I am saying that we must push for libertarian alternatives rather than whine about the real or perceived motives of those who disagree. <BR/><BR/>The alternative to pushing the state into gay marriage in the name of fairness (and then polygamy, and then inter-species, etc) is to get the State out completely. This is the only solution that protects the rights of everyone.<BR/><BR/>And what I'm saying is that we must promote constructive libertarian <I>answers</I> to problems many Americans attribute to immigration and trade. The answer is NOT to keep out immigrants or limit trade. I'm saying that the free market, and personal freedom, is the answer. Cut welfare and open up the market.<BR/><BR/>Finally, I'm well aware that NAFTA is not really free trade. But those libertarians who may side with Buchananites to oppose it will get smeared for that reason.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11620822221586726516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204289.post-82590612735337018982008-12-29T15:02:00.000-06:002008-12-29T15:02:00.000-06:00One more comment, this time on free trade. I find...One more comment, this time on free trade. I find it bizarre to see someone who claims to be a libertarian poo-pooing the importance of free trade; that has been an important part of libertarian thought since Adam Smith.<BR/><BR/>Furthermore, you are making a false dichotomy between opening up the internal market and having free trade. There is no conflict between the two; why do you put them in opposition?<BR/><BR/>And where do you get this nonsense about "surrendering U.S. sovereignty to supra-national trade 'agreements'?" If you're thinking about NAFTA, that treaty has nothing to do with free trade, despite its name. Britain didn't need to negotiate complex treaties (that, not-so-incidentally, impose new regulatory burdens) to implement free trade in the 19th Century; they just unilaterally repealed existing trade restrictions.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204289.post-71479893272712235042008-12-29T14:34:00.000-06:002008-12-29T14:34:00.000-06:00Although I agree with some of what you say (I thin...Although I agree with some of what you say (I think it's a mistake for libertarians to identify as either "left" or "right"), I have to object pretty strongly to some of your comments.<BR/><BR/>The argument for open borders is not left-libertarian; it is simply libertarian. Every private property owner has a right to decide whom to allow on his property, but absent any explicit contractual agreement to the contrary, third parties, including the U.S. Federal Gov't, have no legitimate say in the matter. Attempts to justify the state's immigration restrictions inevitably resort to some form of anti-libertarian collectivist argument, or implicitly acknowledge the state as the ultimate owner of every scrap of land within its claimed borders.<BR/><BR/>It is not a "fetish" to insist on the rights of everyone, regardless of where they were born; it is simply the only principled stand. This is not some airy, theoretical debate; enforcing immigration laws means applying violence against real, flesh-and-blood human beings who are only trying to find a better life for themselves and their families.<BR/><BR/>If you're the sort who doesn't care how the state injures other people, as long as your own ox isn't gored, then the pragmatic argument for open borders is that immigration restrictions destroy the liberties of native-born Americans.<BR/><BR/>It used to be that Americans didn't need to prove they had government permission to work, but the Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986 changed that. The Real ID Act of 2005, aimed at controlling unauthorized immigration, is creating a de facto national ID card. Vigorous enforcement of immigration controls have turned every part of the country within 100 miles of the border into a Bill-of-Rights-free zone.<BR/><BR/>And then there are the assaults ICE has launched on those who employ unauthorized immigrants. American employers are not free to employ whom they will, and they are drafted as unpaid immigration enforcers. One ICE raid on a small company close to where I live resulted in the HR director facing up to 20 years in prison (nearly twice the average sentence for rape) and $500,000 in fines.<BR/><BR/>None of this should surprise anyone. The U.S.'s long borders make effective enforcement of immigration restrictions almost impossible. Nothing short of a police state could do the job. And that's exactly what agitation for immigration restrictions is giving us.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204289.post-56086378825339586832008-12-29T14:18:00.000-06:002008-12-29T14:18:00.000-06:00The positions taken and the logic used are typical...The positions taken and the logic used are typical “right-libertarian” positions. I never call them right-libertarian by the way since they are just conservative.<BR/><BR/>The marriage argument is particularly weak and strained and exactly what I’d expect from a conservative. <BR/><BR/>We can agree that no one has a “right” to state services including marriage. Or state roads, postal service, etc. And your argument is tell gay couples to f... off if they want the right to marry because that expands the state. By the same logic then, pushing a law to strip Jews of the right to attend state schools would be a great advance for liberty. <BR/><BR/>While we’re at it we can also forbid them to use the post office, travel on government roads, received the social security that they paid for, have access to police protection, fire fighting services, etc. Apparently denying one group the equal protection of the law is now considered a great advance for liberty. Apparently, other than that gas chamber/concentration camp thing the National Socialists were really closet libertarians in that they were denying Jews access to so many government services. <BR/><BR/>All these conservatives, in libertarian clothes, harp about the right of gay couples to marry and say the state should get out of the marriage business -- like your hero Ron Paul does. But they never actual push for abolishing marriage and often get married themselves (like Ron Paul did). <BR/><BR/>Finally there is a contradiction between your antigay position and anti-immigration stand. If we stop immigration to satisfy the bigots (who never work to repeal welfare since many of them are on it) then we’d have to say that no American can enter a relationship with a foreigner. Without marriage how do we define relationships for purposes of immigration? If we don’t no American can marry a foreigner. If we do define it but also tell gays they can’t have it then we are saying that Americans, except gay people, can bring their partners to the US. <BR/><BR/>There are legitimate rights that are denied because marriage is denied -- rights which you can take advantage of (I assume you aren’t gay) but which gay people can’t. That includes having their spouse come to the US and live with them, the right not to testify against their spouse, being taxed at higher rates, being denied “benefits” which they are forced to pay for, etc. And some of these, such as the foreign spouse issue, can’t be resolved by private contracts which the bigots want to force on gay couples only. <BR/><BR/>I find it highly suspicious that on gay marriage you want to be “hard core” by denying gays the right to marry. And then when it comes to immigrants you argue that we shouldn’t be hard core and campaign against the infringement on freedom of movement. In one case you appeal to the the hard core to deny gay couples equality before the law and in the other you argue for compromise to deny immigrants their rights. The one thing consistent with your flip-flops is that you are pandering to the prejudices of the Bircher type Right-wing bigot.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204289.post-45519731914969203472008-12-29T13:05:00.000-06:002008-12-29T13:05:00.000-06:00I can buy much of your argument except the part ab...I can buy much of your argument except the part about not calling people bigots, racists or protectionists. Admittedly, one can oppose gay marriage on grounds that are devoid of bigotry, but most folks who oppose it do so because they hate gay people, not because they problematize marriage as a redistributionist scam. You can make an argument for controls on immigration that is not racist, but those who oppose immigration because they hate Mexicans are still racists, and there's no reason not to call them that. You can argue for regulations on imports for lots of reasons that aren't ptotectionist, but you're still a protectionist if you're arguing on a protectionist basis. I've never seen "protectionist" as a pejorative like bigot or racist.<BR/><BR/>There seems to be some inconsistency in your positions as to expansion of marriage and control of immigration. In the first, you oppose expansion of marriage because marriage per se is statist. In the second, you argue for more state intervention because there's other state intervention in place that makes immigration problematic. Isn't immigration control statist per se as much as marriage? Couldn't you just as easily argue that marriage should be expanded fairly as long as we're going to have marriage?<BR/><BR/>Anyway, thoughtful post as usual, for which I am always grateful.Vache Follehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14942494955243643381noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204289.post-40290594462451520592008-12-29T08:07:00.000-06:002008-12-29T08:07:00.000-06:00I'm not defending any kind of conservatism, especi...I'm not defending any kind of conservatism, especially neoconservatism. I'm saying that the libertarian response to gay marriage is to get rid of marriage as a State institution. The answer to immigration is to abolish our labor laws and welfare system. The answer to free trade is to de-regulate the internal market.<BR/><BR/>The answer is <I>not</I> to call "bigots" those who don't want an expansion of legal marriage. It is <I>not</I> to call "racist" those who believe unlimited immigration in a welfare system is not sustainable. It is <I>not</I> to call "protectionist" people who wonder why goods can be imported in the United States that don't meat the regulatory standards imposed on domestic producers.<BR/><BR/>(And is is NOT libertarian to wish that the United States government tax, regulate, spend the nation into bankruptcy and poverty in the hopes that, somehow, the people will turn to libertarianism after that.)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11620822221586726516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204289.post-58770713645838634772008-12-28T17:51:00.000-06:002008-12-28T17:51:00.000-06:00Frankly, most of this post makes no sense at all. ...Frankly, most of this post makes no sense at all. Neither can I make out most of what you are trying to say. <BR/><BR/>Are you trying to say, for instance, that cutting off illegal immigrants from welfare benefits would, in some mysterious way, result ultimately in the end of the welfare system? I would think that the coherent argument would be to the contrary - that piling on as many welfare recipients as possible would eventually cause the system to collapse. <BR/><BR/>Similarly, a choice between 100% tariffs and no internal regulatory controls. Say what? Collectivism is collectivism, one form always leads to and strengthens the arguments for another. <BR/><BR/>It sounds like what you're doing is engage in a variety of imaginary dicotomies in the hope of making a case for neoconservatism that is coherent. There isn't such a thing. Cease wasting your effort. The essence of conservatism is an unsystematic collection of prejudices.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204289.post-89184747977594128142008-12-28T08:58:00.000-06:002008-12-28T08:58:00.000-06:00I don't mean to imply that. This post is perhaps m...I don't mean to imply that. This post is perhaps more of a reaction to some comments made by some left-libertarians on these issues.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11620822221586726516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8204289.post-79295878250033395352008-12-28T05:45:00.000-06:002008-12-28T05:45:00.000-06:00Although All-Left is rooted in the American indivi...Although All-Left is rooted in the American individualist anarchist tradition, it doesn't reject voluntary forms of communitarian anarchism as illegitimate. The wiki entry is wrong in that respect. However, the wiki entry may be correct that the tradition of communitarian anarchism, especially in Europe, is likely to be hostile to individualist anarchism. Another way to put is that what passes for left-wing libertarianism in the US would be regarded as right wing in, say, Europe.<BR/><BR/>In terms of Leftlibertarian.org, which mostly consists of an xml feed aggregator of left-libertarian blogs, I'm not seeing any tendency to conflate libertarianism with Statist enforcement of positive rights, which I think is what you are implying...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com